Kale Yu shares strategies for revitalizing churches through authentic, layperson-driven ministry.
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Is your church struggling with declining engagement or relying on the same old programs without real impact? In this episode, Dr. Kale Yu—scholar, minister, and author of Enkindle: Reviving the Church from Within—joins the MyCom Podcast to explore a powerful new model for church revitalization. Discover actionable insights on empowering laypeople, fostering authenticity in ministry, and creating a culture where excitement and innovation can flourish.
Whether you’re a pastor, ministry leader, or church communicator, this conversation will equip you with practical ideas on how to rethink leadership, communicate organic movement, and trust the Holy Spirit’s work in your congregation.
In this episode:
(00:00) – Episode intro & the problem with outdated church mindsets
(03:14) – Why old program-based solutions aren’t working
(06:53) – What younger generations are looking for: authenticity vs. fakeness
(10:27) – A new model: flipping the pyramid and empowering passions
(13:43) – Stories of laity-led ministry making a difference
(17:07) – How to make room for the Holy Spirit in leadership and vision
(20:56) – Addressing resistance and honoring tradition during change
(22:59) – Beekeeping ministry: a firsthand account of lay-led innovation
(27:37) – The critical role of pastors as facilitators, not controllers
(33:30) – First steps for leaders to implement this model
(35:23) – Encouragement for leaders: Don’t fear failure
(36:30) – Where to find more resources from Dr. Kale Yu
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Episode transcript
Ryan Dunn [00:00:01]:
What have you been communicating about the future of your church or your ministry? According to our guest, Kael Yoo, the path to renewed church vitality may not lie in the next big program, but in releasing the authentic gifts and passions of God's people and trusting the Spirit to do the rest. This is the Viacom Church Communications and Welcome to the Digital Marketing Podcast. We're building your digital ministry toolkit and helping bring your congregation into the digital age. My name is Ryan Dunn. I'm a fellow traveler on the journey to better church connections. For decades now, churches have sought to address declining attendance and waning engagement. But what if the problem isn't about programs or even resources, but about a fundamental need to rethink who leads and how we foster authenticity within our congregations. Kael Yoo joins Micom to invite us into these pressing questions, challenging assumptions about church revitalization and pointing toward a new model grounded in lay empowerment and authenticity.
Ryan Dunn [00:01:20]:
Dr. Kael Yoo is a scholar and ordained minister whose research focuses on cross-cultural evangelism and church revitalization. He's been recognized for his research by Harvard, Yale, Columbia, and Wheaton College. His latest book is Enkindle: Reviving the Church from Within, which serves as a cornerstone of the effort to equip the next generation of leaders. Hey, if conversations like this are valuable to you, then make sure to hit the subscribe button or the follow button on your podcast listening platform. It would also be a big help to us if you left a rating or review. Or if you made a comment about what you appreciate about this particular episode. Apps like Spotify and YouTube allow for comments, and it lets us know what kind of content is meaningful for you in your communications ministry.
Ryan Dunn [00:02:10]:
All right, let's roll into this conversation with Dr. K.L. Yoo on the MyCom Church Communications and Marketing Podcast.
Ryan Dunn [00:02:23]:
Well, Cale, thank you for taking the time to join us on the My Calm Podcast today. How goes it with your soul?
Kale Yu [00:02:31]:
Hi, Ryan. It's a pleasure to be with you and to be joining your podcast. It's all good.
Ryan Dunn [00:02:38]:
Good.
Ryan Dunn [00:02:39]:
We're going to talk quite a bit about your book, Incendial.
Ryan Dunn [00:02:42]:
And one of the things that you note pretty close to the beginning is that a lot of our churches assume a bit of an outdated mindset. In fact, it's a mindset that kind of goes back to post-World War II days in the 1950s and even into the 1960s. Can you provide for us some of the signs that we might look for to tell if our congregation is still operating with this outdated mindset?
Kale Yu [00:03:14]:
Yes, thank you for that question. When I was doing research for the book and I read quite a bit of churches that are dying, which have all died eventually. And they all had a last-ditch effort to try to revitalize their church, and for good reason. And as I read about their stories, and this is across the country, and—
Ryan Dunn [00:03:44]:
Yeah.
Kale Yu [00:03:46]:
And their response was generally the same. They offered like community dinners.
Ryan Dunn [00:03:56]:
Mm-hmm.
Kale Yu [00:03:57]:
They did community outreach. They tried to do new children's programs, new youth programs, do food drives. Then that is sort of the approach, the outlook that churches have in terms of trying to grow their churches. And I think that a lot of people today in churches still very much think like that.
Ryan Dunn [00:04:23]:
Hmm.
Kale Yu [00:04:24]:
And so in that mindset that we have the assumption, the old assumption that if we reach out to the community and offer some service, activities, dinners, that people will come. And they don't. And so a lot of these churches that are dying, they invest a lot of money, resources, people to enact these services and changes, but in the end, it is not effective.
Ryan Dunn [00:05:05]:
So, In a sense, it sounds like a lot of us resort back into thinking that some kind of program is going to fix. And by program, I mean like, oh, well, we're going to offer a contemporary worship service, for example, or a new youth program, or hire that children's director or an after-school program.
Ryan Dunn [00:05:25]:
Yes.
Ryan Dunn [00:05:26]:
And that doesn't necessarily seem to meet our our society's modern needs. Can you tell us about some of the things that maybe people are looking for that churches might be able to start to think about in terms of meeting new people?
Kale Yu [00:05:49]:
Yes, and so what you just said right there is a powerful assumption about how people think about church and about growth, and it is so powerful that church people don't know any other way to think about church growth.
Ryan Dunn [00:06:06]:
Yeah.
Kale Yu [00:06:07]:
That it is sort of our default setting in terms of our mindset. And, you know, I teach undergraduates at High Point University, teach courses like Religion in America, World Christianity, Biblical Themes, and I love to engage my students in conversation. And they all recognize that there is a problem, like a deep-seated problem with the church. But they don't, and so I ask them, so they all have identified that there are issues and problems with the church, and then I ask them, so what should we do? What's the answer? What are your suggestions? And no one has any answers.
Ryan Dunn [00:06:51]:
Hmm.
Kale Yu [00:06:53]:
And the way I see it, the most important thing is authenticity.
Ryan Dunn [00:07:01]:
And is that what the young people are naming as the problem, that they feel like the church is inauthentic?
Kale Yu [00:07:11]:
Well, it's sort of my take on it. It is how I interpret from the research, from the data, from listening to them. The young people are, for the lack of a better word, they are tired of the hypocrisy.
Ryan Dunn [00:07:31]:
Hmm.
Kale Yu [00:07:32]:
They're, they, for us in the church, for us, the older generations, we think we're just doing church. We think, you know, we're being normal. But for the younger generation who are raised with a very suspicious eye, who are very skeptical, they see through our church actions and they see a lot of fakeness. Like, for example, last month I visited a church out of state. It was a beautiful church. A lot of things were going on, and it was my first time there, and when I walked in, there was a greeter there with a smile, asked me a few questions, and they realized that it was my first time there, and she signaled someone else. And then someone went to the back, grabbed a bag for newcomers, a lot of great stuff in the bag, and she left, and someone else escorted me to the service. It was great.
Ryan Dunn [00:08:38]:
Hmm.
Kale Yu [00:08:40]:
It was wonderful. They were friendly, they were smiling, you know, they made me feel welcomed, but for the younger generation, it's easy for them to see that it was all staged.
Ryan Dunn [00:08:54]:
Okay.
Kale Yu [00:08:57]:
That it was, that they're doing, that they're performing a role. They're doing a job that they were assigned to do at church. And so, Well, for our generation, for our older generations, that is wonderful.
Ryan Dunn [00:09:20]:
Yeah, right.
Kale Yu [00:09:22]:
But for the younger generation, they see it with more suspicion that it's not truly them. And they see, the younger generation, because of AI and social media, that they're very hypersensitive to fakeness.
Ryan Dunn [00:09:41]:
Yeah.
Kale Yu [00:09:41]:
And they see a lot of fakeness in the church, and they don't really know, they don't really know what to do about it or even how to suggest how the church to be authentic.
Ryan Dunn [00:09:59]:
Well, certainly Enkindle would not be much of a book if you didn't have some suggestions for some positive movement or some progress within the church. Can you start to tell us a little bit about some of the things that we might consider within the church to overcome some of that distrust of the institution or overcome that perception of fakeness?
Kale Yu [00:10:27]:
Sure. I think in order for us as a church to be authentic is that we need to change the way we think about church, change the way we think about the role of the pastor. and change what we think about the role of laypeople. And in our current church setting that we assume that the pastor is the be-all for the congregation, the initiator, the one who leads, the one who manages, the one at the top of the—
Ryan Dunn [00:11:06]:
The hierarchy.
Kale Yu [00:11:07]:
the pyramid structure, and it's not working.
Ryan Dunn [00:11:14]:
Hmm.
Kale Yu [00:11:15]:
And so what I suggest in the book is that the model be sort of flipped upside down, in which the ideas, the initiation, the will, the passion come from laypeople, Hmm. One of the inherent problems of our current system is that people in church expect the plan to come down from the top. The plan, the resource, the program comes from the top, and the laypeople are expected to implement it, to carry it out. A big problem with that is that people don't get excited about programs. Hmm. You know, they don't get passionate about a program that's been handed to them and that they're expected to carry forth. What they do get excited about is their own passion. Just to give you an example, if someone went through a particular unique experience, whatever that may be, it could be enthralling or something deeply painful, it's something that they developed a passion to help others through that same circumstance.
Ryan Dunn [00:12:52]:
Mm-hmm.
Kale Yu [00:12:54]:
Whatever that may be. And so that passion, that desire is now deep inside them. And so enkindling is enabling that passion to surface and give that person the authority to carry out something that they want to do.
Ryan Dunn [00:13:25]:
Have you seen some ways that churches share or communicate this passion or even this laity-led movement with the community around them?
Kale Yu [00:13:43]:
Well, when I did some evangelism conferences, I actually made the participants try my model out.
Ryan Dunn [00:13:52]:
Yeah.
Kale Yu [00:13:53]:
And we met back together like 3 months later to report back what had happened. And I was just blown away because we did not put any expectations. There was no agenda. There was no particular desired outcome. We just said, you know, let this go, see what happens. And I should mention one key difference with this model and our traditional programmatic model is that in the resource and programs that we develop, it is, for the most part, it is human-made. It is human-contrived, human-developed. and human-initiated.
Kale Yu [00:14:45]:
And so we don't really think about it this way, but the way we conduct these things, it's we leave very little room for the Holy Spirit.
Ryan Dunn [00:14:58]:
Hmm.
Kale Yu [00:14:58]:
And so my model in Kendall, that we allow the Holy Spirit to work in people and in the ministry. So we are co-partnering with the Holy Spirit in that situation. And so the model not only enables the Holy Spirit to partner with us in the local church setting, that the process in and of itself is a step towards an invitation an individual's self-discovery.
Ryan Dunn [00:15:38]:
Hmm.
Kale Yu [00:15:39]:
An individual's figuring themselves out in the process, because for the most part, they don't really know where God is leading them. But through the process of actually taking steps in realizing their passion, they start to form a clearer picture of what they need to do. And so that part of the Christian development, that Christian experience is not there in our current way we do things.
Ryan Dunn [00:16:16]:
I've been a part of a few different church visioning processes, and a lot of times that process starts with the question of how are we going to grow the church? I feel like your process may start with a different base question, and I'm hoping you might be able to provide some steps for an answer to this question, but that base question would be, how do we partner with the Holy Spirit, or how do we even feel a sense of communion with the Holy Spirit? Are there ways that you might initiate this process for a congregation or leadership team at a church to, I guess, give room for the Holy Spirit to speak into their visioning process?
Kale Yu [00:17:07]:
Right, right. And I think the mindset of our church leaders need to change to the fact that the Holy Spirit calls upon laypeople. The Holy Spirit speaks to ordinary folks, everyday folks.
Ryan Dunn [00:17:25]:
Yeah.
Kale Yu [00:17:26]:
And the second part of that equation is trust, is trusting the Holy Spirit and trusting that individual in your congregation to carry out, to be released, and not having a very strict, ideas of what it needs to turn out, but being more open-minded and patient and supporting through that journey. And so the model in and of itself is extremely flexible and adaptable, that it can be a one-time thing, It can be like a 1-year thing. It could be a district-level thing, a conference, or even nationwide, and one of the things that I discovered, like, after actually asking people to apply this to their local context is how surprised I was by what developed because we're just letting them loose with the Holy Spirit. And I was like, I really was shocked because there is no ceiling. Like when we offer a program, it's really a boxed-in enterprise. There are very strict limitations on what people do. And so what I've seen when people apply it, that they do something and then it morphs into something else. And then it triggers other people doing their own thing, and then it spreads out into different ways.
Kale Yu [00:19:18]:
But the great thing about it is that it's exciting.
Ryan Dunn [00:19:22]:
Hmm.
Kale Yu [00:19:22]:
People are genuinely, authentically excited about doing this, and it's not something that they're doing church work, they're doing committee work. They're genuinely excited to do this. Which is, I think, phenomenal for me to see people in church doing.
Ryan Dunn [00:19:44]:
Yeah. Well, that excitement then might answer in part the question that I'm going to ask here. But normally when we introduce something new within the church, there's a little bit of a pushback. There are those voices that say, well, we've always done it this other way before. Or there are those voices that say like, well, Well, I remember years ago, we used to do blank, and that might be, oh, well, we did a live nativity. And it just got people really excited and people from the community came out. Does that excitement over a new development overcome some of the people's fears of moving away from what they've done in the past? Or are there other things that we might need to be aware of in terms of introducing something new without, I guess, neglecting or making people feel uneasy about letting go of some of their past traditions or some of the things that they've invested in over the previous decades?
Kale Yu [00:20:56]:
Absolutely. There is a lot of resistance, and I talk about in the book using the parable of the old and new wineskins. And so the old wineskins, they are hard and brittle, and there's no new wine can go into it, otherwise it'll just break. And so the question that you're asking is, you know, how can old wineskins become new wineskins so that it can accept Hold the new wine of the new generations and ideas. I think that step of persuading people, the longstanding members in the church who love and cherish their church, who were there when their parents, their grandparents built the church, And so it's very personal to them and I get it. But at the same time, I think it's important to realize that in order for the church to exist, that they are sort of, their backs are against the corner and that in order to survive that, that a change needs to happen and like a profound change. And to help them to see that You know, even though it's painful, that it is necessary for the sake of the survival of the church.
Ryan Dunn [00:22:34]:
Well, in order to generate some of that excitement, it helps to share the stories of inspiration. With the group that you worked with out of the conference, were there a story or two or movement action that you got particularly excited about?
Kale Yu [00:22:55]:
Yeah, there were several stories, but I'll just share one.
Ryan Dunn [00:22:58]:
Sure.
Kale Yu [00:22:59]:
That one of the clergy that came to my evangelism conference, she went back to her home church and asked this very shy, I got to meet her, her name is Shell, and she's shy and reserved. And so the pastor had asked her, you know, what are you passionate about? And then she discovered that Shell is a certified beekeeper. And so the pastor asked her, you know, why don't we just— and so, you know, she's a very reserved person. She's not about to do anything, you know, be out there. But the pastor said, why don't we just have like assemble a group of people who might be interested in bees and beekeeping?
Ryan Dunn [00:23:47]:
Hmm.
Kale Yu [00:23:48]:
And so surprisingly, About like 12 people showed up. And so, um, they— let me just say that they had zero expectations of this. Right.
Ryan Dunn [00:24:00]:
Yeah.
Kale Yu [00:24:00]:
They didn't.
Ryan Dunn [00:24:01]:
It's pretty far out there. Yeah. Some people are terrified of bees, right? So, yeah.
Kale Yu [00:24:05]:
Right. And so, um, you know, uh, that it wasn't advertised, uh, of anything of a religious nature, that it was just anyone who's passionate about bees. And this group showed up. And what was really wild is that after the people there just figured out that this was genuine, that there was no strings attached, there was no agenda, Mm-hmm. that there was no anything else, this was it, then something magical happened. that it was like, you know, I talked to the pastor and Chell separately and they both described like the feeling in the room just transformed. And that people, and some of these people didn't go to church, but they felt like a genuine release and they could not stop talking. And they were just getting into it.
Kale Yu [00:25:05]:
They started to help each other, give advice to each other about bees and beekeeping. And like they just, I set it up for 1 hour, but they wanted to keep going and they wanted to meet together. And afterwards there was a person who attended and she was so excited about that meeting that she showed the pastor her own hobby, which was to make cards, handmade cards for people. And it was amazing.
Ryan Dunn [00:25:42]:
Yeah.
Kale Yu [00:25:42]:
She came and showed me She does as her passion hobby, and it was very intricate. It was lacy. It was it was quite amazing. And then the demand for like more people to learn about beekeeping, like more people were asking. And then I a couple of months later, I talked to Shell and I said, "You know, if you do this, like assemble a couple of churches." and offer it. You could even do it on a district-wide level. I mean, you could just take it and go in so many different directions because this is her passion and this is sort of the source of the innovation. We're not exactly telling her what to do, but her passion is a driver and the Holy Spirit.
Kale Yu [00:26:48]:
And when you combine those 2, you generate a lot of excitement and a lot of ideas. And it just, it creates a self-perpetuating, self-generating, like, good energy. Like, it generates enthusiasm, uh, not only from the individual but people around them because they see that, you know, you're for real. You know, you're not, you're not performing, you're not acting in a certain way.
Ryan Dunn [00:27:15]:
Was, so was the, the layperson, um, really kind of in charge of putting together the, the beekeeping, um, session time program?
Kale Yu [00:27:31]:
Well, the, um, uh, this would not have happened without the pastor's support.
Ryan Dunn [00:27:36]:
Okay.
Kale Yu [00:27:37]:
And encouragement. And so the pastor becomes like the facilitator and supporter, and the pastor is the one that spurs, like encourages this thing to go on. And this model would have a hard time going forward without the pastor's support in this. If the pastor doesn't support this type of laypeople initiation, it would not take off.
Ryan Dunn [00:28:15]:
I ask because in Kindle, you talk about Jesus's you do it challenge. Can you describe for us the you do it challenge and then how church leaders embody that kind of leadership?
Kale Yu [00:28:29]:
Right, and so in one of the chapters, I talk about Jesus telling the disciples, you do it. And the disciples were like shocked. They know we can't do it. You do it, Jesus.
Ryan Dunn [00:28:43]:
Yeah.
Kale Yu [00:28:43]:
But Jesus shifted that responsibility over to them. And Jesus, enable them to come up with something on their own, that Jesus did not prescribe a particular method, a specific answer, but you do it, you come up with it.
Ryan Dunn [00:29:09]:
Hmm.
Kale Yu [00:29:10]:
And so he pushed the initiation onto them and to ask them to come forth with something. And this is where faith, Passion comes together. And this is another deep-seated assumption and mindset that needs to be overturned because in many cases, we in the church think of laypeople as receivers. We think of Our Lady as passive. But this model overturns that. And sees laypeople as active, as a source of ideas and initiative and innovation.
Ryan Dunn [00:29:56]:
How do churches communicate these, I guess, this organic movement that's happening? Have you seen some creative ways that churches have begun to share the stories of what's happening in their midst?
Kale Yu [00:30:14]:
Let me say it's hard.
Ryan Dunn [00:30:15]:
Yeah, okay.
Kale Yu [00:30:17]:
It's hard.
Ryan Dunn [00:30:17]:
Thanks for being real. It is, yep.
Kale Yu [00:30:20]:
And, you know, even though I teach at a college and I pastored for nearly 20 years, and one of the big problems is that we as clergy, we are sort of trained to sort of mind the church. to manage the church, to not let it get out of control. And if things get out of control, that we feel it's our job to put it back in control.
Ryan Dunn [00:30:52]:
Hmm.
Kale Yu [00:30:53]:
That we as clergy prize orderliness. We prize order, and so we don't like spontaneity. And so these are all assumptions that are quite strong within us that we need to sort of change in order to adopt this model.
Ryan Dunn [00:31:23]:
Do churches— I think one of the trappings that some churches fall into is they make claims that what they're doing is a little bit different without necessarily showing what they're doing is a little bit different. Have there been some churches that you've noticed that are able to effectively communicate that there is a new thing going on? And maybe do you have some details about what that looks like?
Kale Yu [00:31:56]:
Yes, I think I think we in the church, we have new resources, new programs that the denomination or the conference or experts or stuff that big churches have successfully done. So every year we come across a lot of these resources. But in my opinion, from my perspective, at the core, I feel like it is a repeat of the core programs and resources that we have done for decades. And so even though it's sort of repackaged as something new, but I feel like most of them are not effective. And for a lot of pastors, they see that, that they are handed to them all these programs and methods that we are told to try out, but in the end, it doesn't gain much traction.
Ryan Dunn [00:33:09]:
So final question, maybe to close out on a positive note in moving towards some forward progress, and what might be a first step for a church leader to make to start to implement the Enkindle process?
Kale Yu [00:33:30]:
I think the pastor needs to go through like a reorientation. Ryan, you probably read the stats of clergy burnout.
Ryan Dunn [00:33:42]:
Yeah.
Kale Yu [00:33:43]:
And back in the '60s, the life of a clergy was much more simpler.
Ryan Dunn [00:33:53]:
Hmm.
Kale Yu [00:33:53]:
But now, with the culture the way it is, there's so many things to wrap your head around that it's very difficult for clergy to be on top of everything. It's become almost impossible, and that it is putting a tremendous strain on the clergy. And because it's the pyramid system where the clergy's at the top, Yeah. And so, but my model, you are empowering the laity to take up the task themselves and to come up with the ideas, to come up with the innovation. And so it is kind of sharing the burden throughout the church. And so it is really important to kind of, I guess it also starts with seminaries too, to kind of realizing the new reality of the contemporary church and the enormous amount of pressure that clergy are in and find ways to alleviate that and to help reorient the clergy as facilitators, as encouragers-in-chief, to be gatekeepers rather than as managers and controllers of ministry.
Ryan Dunn [00:35:13]:
I like that, encouragers-in-chief.
Kale Yu [00:35:15]:
Yes. Very good.
Ryan Dunn [00:35:17]:
Well, KL, thank you. Oh, sorry.
Kale Yu [00:35:20]:
Can I mention one more thing?
Ryan Dunn [00:35:22]:
Absolutely.
Kale Yu [00:35:23]:
And so that we in the church, we are scared of failure, especially the clergy. And so one of the things that I tell clergy at conferences, at workshops is, you know, don't be afraid. And, you know, I said sometimes what I've seen with this model in application is that yes, It might look like a failure, but it could also lead to something else that we have no idea about. Maybe that person needed to go through that failure for the next phase that is to come. Maybe even though it was a failure, there were people who were part of it that now got the fire to do something on their own. You just don't know.
Ryan Dunn [00:36:12]:
Yeah.
Kale Yu [00:36:12]:
And so, not to be afraid, be encouraged, and just keep at it.
Ryan Dunn [00:36:21]:
Well, the book is in Kindle. And Kale, for folks who want to research a little bit more or even get in touch with you, is there a space online where they can do so?
Kale Yu [00:36:30]:
Sure. I have a website, www.kkaleyu.net. And the book, in fact, Cokesbury has adopted the book for the annual conferences. So if people go to Annual Conference and go into Cokesbury's digital new books on ministry portal, that it'll be there. It's at Cokesbury, Barnes Noble, Amazon, I guess just about everywhere. Cool.
Ryan Dunn [00:37:02]:
All right.
Ryan Dunn [00:37:03]:
Well, once again, thank you so much for sharing your time and wisdom with us.
Kale Yu [00:37:06]:
Thank you, Ryan.
Ryan Dunn [00:37:08]:
Thanks for taking this journey with us in the MICOM Church Communications and Marketing Podcast. You can learn more about the podcast. You can find episode notes for this episode and more and find further episodes at resourceumc.org/mycompodcast. mycom is a production of United Methodist Communications. This podcast comes out monthly. I want to give thanks to Renee McNeil and Andrew Schleicher for production and marketing support. My name is Ryan Dunn. I'll talk to you soon.
Ryan Dunn [00:37:39]:
Peace.