Explore how digital ministry fosters real relationships, spiritual searching, and belonging as church leaders share insights from the Phygital Fellows program.
Listen and subscribe: Apple Podcasts / Spotify / Amazon
Discover fresh insights for church communications and digital ministry in this episode of the MyCom Church Communications and Marketing Podcast. This episode brings together digital ministry practitioners from the Phygital Ministry Fellows program. They share practical takeaways and deep reflections on building real relationships, fostering belonging, and creating spiritual spaces online.
Whether you’re a full-time digital pastor or new to online ministry, this episode will help you reimagine how to meet people in digital arenas—moving beyond simply broadcasting content to nurturing meaningful connection and community. You’ll hear firsthand about real questions people carry into digital spaces, how to connect with younger generations, using pop culture as a bridge to faith, and the ethical considerations every church should make before trying the latest technology.
Onsite video recording for this episode was mainly done by Ben Chamness and Rohini Drake of First United Methodist Church of Richardson, Texas, while the Fellows program was meeting in Chicago during March of 2026.
Appearing in this episode:
Jonah Overton, co-pastor of Zao MKE Church in Milwaukee, Wisconsin. Jonah (they/them) is a queer communuity organizer, and the lead pastor and planter of Zao MKE Church. Zao started in their living room before it grew into a local theater. Zao later moved into their own church building and is now transitioning to a series of digitally connected house churches.
Mike Whang is an artist, author, and investment advisor who founded Oikon Studios. Through Substack, Oikon provides liturgies, reflections, and music for spiritual formation.
Rachel Gilmore is Director of New/Vital Faith for the Desert Southwest Conference of The United Methodist Church. She has served as a church planter, podcaster, and coach. We Rev. Kris Sledge, another fellowship participant, she wrote Followers Under 40: The journey away from church for Millennials, Gen Z, and Gen Alpha.
Phil Dieke is the Director of Congregational Innovation at Lifelong Learning at Austin Seminary, Chair of the Horizon Texas Conference Board of Church and Society, and co-host of the Radical Sacred podcast.
Tamice Spencer-Helms is a published author, speaker, trainer, and founder of Black Modern Mystic--a podcast for social transformation born from the sacred refusal of the Hush Harbor tradition and created to inspire listeners to activate “resurrection” in everyday life.
Nathan Webb is the founder of Checkpoint Church--an all-digital church for nerds, geeks, and gamers--as well as the author of God and the Machine: Navigating Faith in the Age of AI.
In this episode:
(00:00) - Introduction: Rethinking Digital Ministry
(02:08) - What Questions Are People Bringing Online?
(05:00) - Belonging, Anxiety & Purpose in Digital Spaces
(07:38) - Digital Spaces as First Stop for Spiritual Questions
(09:39) - Are Online Relationships Really Shallow?
(13:54) - Discord and Deep Community Formation
(16:47) - The Gift of Vulnerability & Agency Online
(18:58) - Markers of Trust in Digital Gatherings
(21:41) - Rethinking Youth Engagement: Asking Better Questions
(23:03) - Grieving the Old Models & Embracing Humility
(24:08) - What Draws Young People to Online Spaces?
(28:10) - Pop Culture as Sacred Text
(32:14) - Theology of Incarnation and Presence in Digital Ministry
(36:14) - Practicing Neighborliness in Virtual Spaces
(37:48) - Ethics of Technology Use in Church
(39:23) - Voices in the Wilderness: Pastoring Beyond the Walls
(42:02) - Practical Takeaways for Digital Ministry
(45:46) - Resources and Closing
Related episodes:
- Digital Pathways to Spiritual Growth (116)
- Creating immersive church experiences through digital storytelling (109)
Related resources:
Episode transcript
Ryan Dunn [00:00:05]:
Welcome to the mycom Church Communications and Marketing Podcast. I'm Ryan Dunn. For a long time, church has talked about digital ministry as if it were kind of an add on. It was something extra, something we did because we had to, or something that helped us promote, quote, unquote, the real ministry that was happening someplace offline, right? But for many people today, digital spaces are not secondary spaces. They're places where real questions are being asked, real relationships are being formed, and real spiritual searching is happening. Recently I participated in a fellowship program called Phygital Fellows. This was an initiative of the Texas Methodist foundation and Wesleyan Impact Partners, and it was made possible through support of the Lilly Endowment. The participants were practitioners of ministry in digital spaces to varying degrees.
Ryan Dunn [00:01:02]:
So we had everything from full time digital pastors to pastors who were actually really skeptical of relying too much on technology for the practice of ministry. Our shared focus was to develop ways of proclaiming the church's mission in digital arenas. At our final gathering, we recorded several participants reflecting on what they were learning through this fellowship program. How really relationships form online, how digital spaces connect with younger generations, what questions people bring into those digital spaces, and how theology helps us think more faithfully about technology. Ben Chamness and Rohini Drake did most of the heavy work on the recording process for the participants here. Ben and Rohini are online ministry staffers at First United Methodist Church in Richardson, Texas. And Rohini was a member of the fellowship group as well, and we talked with her actually previously on Mycom episode 109. Ben was there as well, although he did not want to be on camera.
Ryan Dunn [00:02:08]:
But we talked with them about digital storytelling. My role in this whole recording process was more like a content consultant. I just asked some follow up questions, but in this episode you'll hear directly from several digital ministry practitioners. Jonah Overton, Mike Wong, Nathan Webb, Phil Deke, Rachel Gilmore, and Temese Spencer Helms. And as you listen, I want to invite you to hold on to one question for yourself. What if digital ministry is not about getting people from online spaces into church spaces, but about recognizing that God is already present in the places where people are searching, connecting, questioning, and finding one another? All right, let's start here with the basic question. What are people actually bringing into digital spaces? For church communicators like us, it's tempting to think of the Internet primarily as a distribution platform, right? Like we post announcements, we share our worship links, we upload sermons, we promote events. But the people who encounter those posts and videos, the podcast the Discord Chats the live streams, the substacks, chatbots, all that stuff.
Ryan Dunn [00:03:28]:
They're not simply users. They're people with longings and fears and hopes, griefs, curiosities and questions. Mike Wong is the pastor and creator behind Oikon Studios, which produces liturgies, reflections, music, and publications to encourage a regular experience with Christ. Mike said the questions that people bring online are not new questions. They're ancient human questions.
Mike Whang [00:04:00]:
I think people are asking the same questions that they ask offline and have asked since humanity was formed. Questions around meaning, purpose, questions around identity. Who am I? Why am I here? Shout out Derek Zoolander. Questions oriented around who are my people? Where do I belong? I don't consider myself a innovator by any means, and I think we can lean too heavy on, like, trying to be innovative. I think what's important is we just ask basic human questions. I think those are the questions that Jesus answers in his teachings and in his life. And so whether it's online or offline, meaning, belonging. These are the two main questions that I think we're all asking.
Ryan Dunn [00:05:00]:
Meaning and belonging. Those are two pretty good words for offering a summary of what the church is called to attend to, right? And is it possible then to shepherd these longings in digital spaces? People are not only asking like, what time is your worship service? Or where is your building located? They're asking, who am I? Why am I here? Who are my people? Where do I belong? We're going to hear from Rachel Gilmore, who is the director of New Vital Faith for the Desert Southwest Annual Conference of the United Methodist Church alongside Chris Sledge, another participant in this fellow's program. Rachel co authored followers under 40 and you can learn Learn all about that book in mycom episode number 104. Rachel did focus group research as part of the writing process for that book and indicated that she's heard similar questions. She named belonging, shared resourcing, anxiety, purpose, and the need for people to process their lived experience with others.
Rachel Gilmore [00:06:05]:
I mean, a lot of it depends on the context, like, and the digital platform where you're encountering people. But I would say in general, common themes I'm seeing are folks want a sense of belonging. They don't want to feel alone. They want a sense of shared resourcing. So if they're feeling anxious or they're struggling with finances or purpose, they want to know that there's someone or something out there that can help them sort it out or understand potential pathways forward. I think they're also wanting a way to feel more deeply when they're happy when they're sad. Like to have a place to process that or not feel so alone with whatever it is their lived experience might be.
Ryan Dunn [00:06:49]:
That's an important insight for church leaders and communicators. Digital ministry is not simply about content. I have to remind myself that it's about companionship. People are searching for a place to process their lives. They're looking for people who can help them make meaning. They want to know that they're not alone in things like their anxiety or their questions or their joy or their sense of purpose or even their sense of lack of purpose. Phil Dieke, who works in podcasting, he works in young adult faith formation and serves as the chair of the Horizon Texas Conference Board of Church and Society. He said that digital spaces have become the first place that many people go to with their questions, including all of them.
Phil Dieke [00:07:38]:
I think people, it's like now the first place they go to ask questions. And I think it's questions of faith. I think it's questions of how do I do X, Y and z. Thank you, YouTube. But I do think absolutely people are asking questions of faith. It used to just be Google, right? Like, Google was kind of the kind of joke that Google became God because it was like, omniscient, you know, and like omnipresent. Like, it was all the omnis that we traditionally talked about because it had all the answers and it was always there. But now it's become not just a you go to that seeking an answer, but you go to a chatbot or chatgpt, whatever it is, and you actually get to converse with something.
Phil Dieke [00:08:20]:
I said, something, not somebody, right? Something that's going to give you responses and continue to have an ongoing dialogue. And so I very much, I'm seeing people have those questions of faith that they're going to and trying to explore with AI and in digital spaces in
Ryan Dunn [00:08:38]:
general, that might change some of our communications tasks. If people are bringing questions of faith to digital spaces, then churches cannot treat those spaces only as bulletin boards. We have to treat them as places of ministry. The question is not only how do we get our church information in front of people. The better question might actually be how do we become a trustworthy presence where people are already asking their deepest questions? One of the most persistent assumptions about digital ministry is that online relationships are shallow relationships. And to be fair, sometimes they really are. Like, a comment thread can be shallow, a live stream can be shallow. A social platform does things like rewarding outrage and speed of response and performance over things that bring us into Places of vulnerability or patience and depth that are necessary for a deep relationship.
Ryan Dunn [00:09:39]:
But the people that I spoke with kept challenging the idea that online relationships are shallow by nature. To me, Spencer Helms is the creator behind Black Modern Mystic. I've spoken with Tamise on my other podcast, Compass, and we talked about the idea of spiritual mixtaping, which ties together theory and tradition with our lived reality today. And Timmise said that the depth of a relationship has less to do with the container that it's in and more to do with what the people are bringing into it.
Tamice Spencer-Helms [00:10:14]:
I think the most immediate experience that comes to mind is my own marriage. I think it's possible to bring depth to any space. I met a really deep person online, and I think really online just creates another container for people to meet each other. And I think it's the depth that you bring to the table that really matters. It's not so much that the space is shallow, it might be that the person in the space is shallow.
Ryan Dunn [00:10:37]:
Yeah, a little. Funny. Likely. Deeply true digital space is a container of sorts. It's like the big container or cupboard that holds all of your little Tupperware containers, right? Like any other container, it can hold shallowness or emptiness, or it can hold meaningful interactions or your prized leftovers. It can hold performance, or it can hold honesty and it can hold distraction, or it can hold prayer and presence. Nathan Webb, who is the founding pastor of Checkpoint Church and an all digital expression of church for nerds, geeks and gamers, his words. My friend Nathan pushed back on the online relationships are shallow assumption.
Ryan Dunn [00:11:19]:
He points out that relationships rarely begin with instant depth in any kind of context. What?
Nathan Webb [00:11:28]:
Relationships don't start shallow? I think that for that answer and for people that have that feeling, it's that they've never taken the next step to actually lean into a relationship. And so if all you're ever willing to do is start a conversation or post a comment or engage in like a parasocial surface level, then of course you're going to only discover really shallow relationships. But whenever you're willing to meet someone on the other side of the screen, rather than just seeing them as like, you know, a digital picture of themselves. But no, this is like an actual human being. This is an actual embodied person receiving what I'm saying and offering back to me, that's how relationships work. And so it's really not about digital or physical or about the way that we do it. It's, are you taking this relationship seriously? That's how we get past shallow relationships. It doesn't matter the platform.
Nathan Webb [00:12:20]:
It just matters that we're intentionally seeing the human being.
Ryan Dunn [00:12:24]:
In my work as a social media coordinator, I need to hold on to that phrase from Nathan, intentionally seeing the human being. Church communicators spend a lot of time thinking about platforms. We think about Facebook or Instagram, TikTok or YouTube, email or text, and those questions matter. But Nathan reminds us that the deeper question is relational. Are we taking the person on the other side of whatever it is that we're presenting seriously? A new friend that I made through this program is Reverend Jonah Overton. Jonah is a queer community organizer and the founder of Zhao Church, which is in process of transitioning from a very kind of traditional single site church to a network of digitally connected house churches. Jonah described a member of their community who had been involved for years, but felt more connected once the ministry began using Discord as a major connective space. And if you're not familiar with Discord, it is a digital space for chatting and.
Ryan Dunn [00:13:30]:
And messaging. It's kind of a collection of chat rooms, but with intentional features for managing conversations and topics. Nathan Webb's Checkpoint Church considers their primary connectional space to be Discord, and Zhao is moving in that direction as well. So here's what Jonah had to say about an app like that becoming a connective space.
Jonah Overton [00:13:54]:
We have a member of our community who's been involved for like six, seven years, which in the life of our church plant is an eternity. She's been around longer than most people have even heard the name of our ministry. And she's a highly involved leader. And when we started engaging Discord as the major connective tissue of our ministry, within a couple of months, we had a leadership team. We were trying to evaluate it, and it was like, how's it going? How are people feeling about it? And this person shared, she was like, I feel more confused, connected now more deeply and more meaningfully to more members of this community than I ever have at any other point in in this ministry.
Ryan Dunn [00:14:34]:
For this person, digital space did not dilute community, it deepened community. Jonah went on to explain the kind of conversations that the platform has made possible.
Jonah Overton [00:14:46]:
Because the digital platform gives people space to talk about things that aren't necessarily churchy, gives people space to offer feedback and their own insights into the sermons, gives people a platform to engage their interests like she leads a crafting space. I think that there is a sort of democratic conversational energy in online space that we're not used to in church, which can be very hierarchical.
Ryan Dunn [00:15:18]:
We're becoming increasingly Aware of something. A long standing trend in our institutional spaces. Many of our church spaces are designed around one person speaking and many people listening. Digital spaces often work differently. They allow side conversations, they allow people to gather around interests. They allow members to respond and contribute, question and shape the communities that they're in in those digital spaces. And that can feel threatening actually to institutions who are used to controlling the microphone or pulpit. But it can also be inviting and even holy.
Ryan Dunn [00:15:55]:
It can be a way of making room for gifts, voices and needs that were already present, but really had no place to surface. One of the surprises that I encountered in these conversations was how often the participants described digital space as a place of vulnerability. And that may seem counterintuitive because we often talk about the Internet as a place where people kind of hide and they're not their true selves, right? Or they, they just want to be argumentative or they want to perform. We put on a front or a brand in digital spaces. But for some people, digital space can provide a kind of safety that a traditional spurt church space, for example, may not offer. Jonah said the digital ministry revealed how many people had not been well served by an exclusively in person model.
Jonah Overton [00:16:47]:
I think engaging in digital space and seeing who feels safer and more available in digital space to engage and be vulnerable has exposed for me how many people our previous in person, exclusive ministry was not working for.
Ryan Dunn [00:17:09]:
That's a valuable observation. When we say everybody is welcome. We may assume our building or sanctuary or our fellowship hall is experienced as welcoming by everybody. But Jonah reminds us that for people who have been alienated or traumatized by church, stepping physically into a church building may not feel safe.
Jonah Overton [00:17:29]:
So if somebody has been really alienated from church before and traumatized by church before, walking in physically to a church church building, sitting your body in a pew and subjecting yourself to whatever's going to happen may not be very safe. But engaging from the safety of your own home, with the comfort and support of your pet and your favorite beverage in a coffee mug, through a screen that allows you to sort of titrate and engage to the best of your ability gives people a sense of agency over their vulnerability that allows them to choose to be vulnerable in a way that is maybe demanded in other more traditional spaces.
Ryan Dunn [00:18:14]:
That's a deep idea, giving people agency over their vulnerability. All of us have been in spaces where a sense of forced vulnerability actually kept us from being vulnerable, and for some traditional church is that kind of space. Digital ministry can allow people to decide how much they are ready to share. They can lurk, they can listen, they can turn a camera off, they can type before they speak, they can enter slowly. And sometimes over time, that agency makes deeper vulnerability possible. Nathan Webb described a practice in his ministry that helps people remember that they're not alone in a digital gathering. And it's a small button in a community nap. It's a tactile reminder that others are present with them.
Nathan Webb [00:19:04]:
Yeah, one of the important factors for us in our digital first experience of other human beings is to remind ourselves of how we are embodied. And so one of the ways that we do that is through an app that we built for communion. And the part that isn't really communion, but is just kind of a reminder of the body of Christ gathered is this little button. And it's a button that you press on your phone, on your computer, whatever, but whenever you press it, there's going to be a little number at the bottom that raises. And that number is representative of all of the people gathered in that moment. So it's just a reminder for us, a tangible, like tactile reminder that there are other humans in this space.
Ryan Dunn [00:19:45]:
That leaves us with a good question for digital ministry. How do we remind people that there are other humans here? Not just viewers or metrics, not impressions or accounts, but there are humans there. Nathan also noted that in some communities, a camera turning on can mark a significant moment of trust.
Nathan Webb [00:20:05]:
One of the ways that you know that you've kind of made it with someone, once you know that somebody has joined your digital space and actually connected, is whenever they're willing to turn their camera on. Like some people are willing to do the voice thing. Most people hang out in the text, but the moment they turn their camera on, something really magical happens. There's a pivotal change in the relationship. There's a deepness that happens in that moment, an intimacy that happens in that moment.
Ryan Dunn [00:20:33]:
Now, unlike my work context, I noticed that Nathan does not say that they require people to turn their cameras on. In fact, he says they give people permission not to do so right away. And that matters. Digital ministry at its best doesn't force the intimacy. It creates conditions where the trust for vulnerability and intimacy can grow. For church leaders and communicators, this invites us to think beyond content strategy and into community design. What practices can we foster that create a sense of safety? What practices honor people's agency? And what practices remind people that they're not alone? What practices allow someone to move from lurking to participating and belonging without being rushed or pressured? There's an age old question in churches about age. You know, many churches are asking some version of the question of how do we get young people here? Actually, darn near all churches are asking that question.
Ryan Dunn [00:21:41]:
Look around and they notice that younger generations are missing, and then they worry about the future. They want to be intergenerational. They want to share faith with children, teenagers, young adults, and young families. Several of the digital fellows suggested that how do we get young people here may actually be the wrong starting point. It's the wrong question. Rachel Gilmore put it bluntly.
Rachel Gilmore [00:22:07]:
Yeah, A better question than how do we get the young people here is why did they leave in the first place? And are we willing to sacrifice what has to be done to get them back? Every church says, we want young adults, we want young families, young professionals, teenagers. But they don't want to make the changes necessary to create a safe intergenerational space for that to happen.
Ryan Dunn [00:22:33]:
All right. It's a hard word to hear because we've been in this question phase for so long, but it's a necessary word for us to hear. Churches often say that they want younger people, but they may not want the questions or changes, the leadership, the aesthetics, the conversations, or the disruptions that younger people can bring. Rachel said, churches have to grieve the fact that the glory days that many of us remember are gone.
Rachel Gilmore [00:23:03]:
It's tough. Change is hard, and it's really hard for churches that haven't done the work of grieving, that the grand glory days of church that they remember from the 60s, 70s, even 80s, 90s seeker movement, they're gone. And what drew them to church decades ago will not work anymore. So they have to start from a posture of humility and listening and learning. And that can be really hard for an established church to do as well.
Ryan Dunn [00:23:31]:
So humility, listening, and learning are not usually the first words that we associate with marketing. We want to be more pumped up or cheerleaders. Right. But they may be the spiritual posture required for faithful communication today. To me, Spencer Helms offers us a different question. Instead of asking how to get young people to come to us, they ask why young people go where they already go.
Tamice Spencer-Helms [00:23:58]:
One question that I ask is, why do the young people go there? What are the places that are not trying to get them, but that they naturally are? Their own volition, want to go. And usually those spaces are authentic. They tell the truth, they're expansive. But they also invite questions and change.
Ryan Dunn [00:24:16]:
So there's a shift. Instead of beginning with the church's need for attendance, it begins with curiosity about the spaces where people already find meaning, safety, truth and belonging. To me said younger people are drawn to places where they can stretch out, ask questions, and even change their minds.
Tamice Spencer-Helms [00:24:35]:
And so I think if institutions or churches are thinking about how to keep young people, I think it behooves them to kind of dig into those questions of meaning making and how do we adapt to change and how expansive can we be with our language. I think that's where young people feel drawn and where they feel safe is where they can stretch out a little bit and change their minds.
Ryan Dunn [00:24:55]:
Nathan Webb offered another challenge about the label young people. He said that it is not usually the way that people describe themselves.
Nathan Webb [00:25:04]:
And I remember thinking, I've never actually like attributed that like, word to myself. I've never just been like, yes, hello, I am Nathan. I am a young person. That's not really a label that I affixed to myself. And I think that in a very similar way, that's what we're doing whenever we say, let's get those kids in church is we're putting a label upon them that they probably don't apply to the themselves.
Ryan Dunn [00:25:28]:
Instead, Nathan asks us to meet people through the identities, interests, and discoveries they actually claim.
Nathan Webb [00:25:35]:
If we're willing to meet people where they are with the labels that they might apply to themselves or with the things that they might put as a part of their identity, then you are able to actually attract people into relationship and into community. Because you're not just saying, hello, young person, come and join this thing. Instead you're able to say, you know, like I mentioned, hello, video game fan, hello, super Mario RPG fan, hello, you know, et cetera. Being able to meet people in that level, that's how you actually attract young people who are discovering and figuring out what it means to be them.
Ryan Dunn [00:26:09]:
For church communicators, this idea has some implications. A post that says something like young adults wanted, maybe less compelling than an invitation built around actual interest or curiosity or community. People don't want to be treated as their demographic targets. Instead, they're seeking to be seen and recognized as their individual selves. Phil Deek said something similar from his work with young adults. Younger adults are looking for acceptance, community and real entrustment, not tokenism.
Phil Dieke [00:26:45]:
If, if they don't find a sense of acceptance and community and often like entrustment or maybe empowerment. I have weird ideas about empowerment, but entrustment of who young adults are to lead in the church in this time, if they don't find that quickly and not just a, oh, you're young, like, go work with the Children kind of thing, right? Then they won't come back and they'll just go start it themselves.
Ryan Dunn [00:27:09]:
That last phrase is kind of important. They'll just go start something themselves. Phil told a story of a young adult who started a run club. And it was not a church program, but community. And then faith community formed. There were book studies and then Bible studies that came out of it.
Phil Dieke [00:27:27]:
I mean, I had a young adult who started a run club, right? And it wasn't a church based thing, but like out of this run club in Austin now they have like, they do book studies and Bible studies and like all these spaces where she could, couldn't find it in, in the church. And so she just kind of created her own space there.
Ryan Dunn [00:27:40]:
So if people cannot find belonging meaning in spiritual formation in the spaces that we offer, then they may not stop searching there. They may simply create those spaces somewhere else. The opportunity for churches is not to compete with every other community space. The opportunity is to become humble enough and curious enough, even flexible enough to, to recognize where the spirit is already stirring and then be a part of that process. Several of the participants wanted to talk about the role of culture. So movies, music, video games, anime, podcasts, crafting. We've heard about running online fandoms. These were not described as distractions from faith.
Ryan Dunn [00:28:25]:
They were described as bridges into meaning and story. To me, Spencer Helms uses the mixtape format that we talked about earlier in their ministry, drawing on music and movies as sacred texts for the initiation of spiritual conversation.
Tamice Spencer-Helms [00:28:41]:
The way that I bring them in, I use music. So in my practice, I use a mixtape format where I use music and movies. I think those are naturally things that people are drawn to. And so you get to their authenticity quicker because it's a place that's already tapped into something that they want, want and something they desire. So we use cultural text and we call it sacred text, and then we excavate meaning from that. And that's been the best route that I found. To have young people have devotional conversations and spiritual conversations around things that they already are interested in. It just does a lot of the work for you.
Ryan Dunn [00:29:12]:
Sometimes churches try to manufacture relevance by forcing language into cultural spaces, but Tamis is describing something more organic. Start where people already are, Start with what already has meaning. Start with the music and the stories and the questions and the cultural text that already move people. And then Nathan Webb describes something similar through video games and storytelling.
Nathan Webb [00:29:37]:
I'll say this, so growing up in the church, I have a lot of those, like, shivers down your neck moments that would happen at, like, revivals or at some kind of big, like, Christian concert where the big song would hit the big moment, and I'd experience. Experience that, like, euphoria. And I thought that that was, like, reserved for the spiritual, that was reserved for, like, the overt church experiences. But then I started playing really good video games, and all of a sudden I discovered, oh, this is an experience that I'm experienced through story. I'm experiencing it through evocative gameplay or through emotional storytelling, empowerment through characters.
Ryan Dunn [00:30:14]:
So here we have Nathan beginning to ask theological questions because something he once associated only with Ch was happening through story, gameplay, character, and imagination.
Nathan Webb [00:30:26]:
Technology, specifically technology of video games, specifically the technology of animation, of anime, and that kind of thing is that it has the capacity to tell moving stories, which is the oldest technology that we've got. Right. Like, it's nothing new, but it's just a reminder of the power of how technology is working. Is that storytelling, the act of telling our story, of passing it on to generation, whether that's the oral storytelling, whether that is the parable storytelling of Jesus, or whether it's the video games of today. The way that we're connecting theology, the way we're connecting spiritually with one another and with the divine, is through the act of telling our story.
Ryan Dunn [00:31:12]:
For communicators, this is both permission and challenge. The permission is this, that we can take culture seriously. We can pay attention to the stories that people love and that we love too, and the songs that move them and the games that form us and the images that we share and the memes that we pass along, the communities that we tend to occupy online. The challenge, though, is this, that we have to do that work with respect, not as a gimmick or not as a way to pull a Jesus juke. It's not bait. We're not trying to smuggle a message in. There were there because these are places where people are already making meaning. There's a very Wesleyan instinct in this, the recognition that grace is already at work.
Ryan Dunn [00:31:57]:
Right. The Spirit is already moving. The church's job is not to drag people out of their world in order to meet God. Sometimes the church's job is to help people name where God has already been in the present. Because this was a fellowship for digital ministry practitioners, we asked a question about theology and technology. Mike Wang said that the theological concept that keeps coming to the surface for him is incarnation. God taking on flesh.
Mike Whang [00:32:33]:
Yeah, I think when we talk about digital ministry and physical ministry, the intersection, the theological concept that is always prominent for me, is this idea of incarnation, God taking on flesh. So whether our ministry is inside of a church building or on a substack or on a zoom, the idea that the technology itself is not what we worship, but. But like through that technology, God's presence becomes made manifest, it becomes felt, it becomes experienced.
Ryan Dunn [00:33:12]:
A good distinction to keep in mind there. The technology is not what we worship. The platform is not the point. The point is whether people experience the presence of God as being near.
Mike Whang [00:33:25]:
And each individual person that's engaging in ministry is experiencing God in their body, in their present reality, whether they're looking on a screen or in a service or in a home. The experience of God as present and near, I think that's the theological concept that we always want to be centered and grounded in, is how are we creating ministry that is practicing incarnation, that is practicing God's presence?
Ryan Dunn [00:33:56]:
Cool questions come out of that invitation to practice God's presence. So instead of asking only how many views did we get on this video or how many people clicked, we might also ask, did this help someone experience God as present and near? It may not be a huge number, but any number at all. There is something to celebrate, right? Or did this create a space where people could be honest? Did this help someone pray, connect, or serve or feel less alone? Jonah Overton approached the theology question through neighborliness. Jesus taught us to love our neighbor. Of course we know that. But digital space complicates and expands what neighborliness can mean.
Jonah Overton [00:34:37]:
One of the core kind of concepts of the theology as taught by Jesus is the concept of the neighbor and what it means to draw near to someone. When Jesus preached about the neighborhood, preached about the Good Samaritan, he made particular word choices how to frame what neighborliness was. And he could have chosen something that would be more tied to ethnic identity or tribal identity. And instead, he chose something that was about physical proximity and then told a story of somebody crossing the road to come near to someone.
Ryan Dunn [00:35:16]:
So, yeah, at times, digital technology can make us feel far apart. We may be in different rooms, cities, or time zones, right? But it can also collapse distance in a sense. It can allow people to draw near across geography.
Jonah Overton [00:35:29]:
There are ways in which virtual technology makes distances feel greater. We're further away from one another. We're maybe meeting from our own rooms or locations, or different cities, different time zones. But there's another way in which virtual space collapses geography and allows us to. To draw near to anyone who is willing and able to draw near to us. At the same time and with the same intention and so I think the theological conversations about what it means to be a neighbor and how we can draw near to one another have incredible implications for engaging in virtual space, to be loving and to love God and to love our neighbor as ourselves.
Ryan Dunn [00:36:14]:
So this gives our communicators and leaders a theological frame for digital ministry that we're not merely broadcasting, we're. We're trying to draw near. Right? We're not merely posting. We're practicing neighborliness. We're not merely managing platforms, but we're intentionally creating spaces where people can experience God's presence, one another's presence, and the possibility of belonging. I've been advocating pretty hard for digital ministry up to this point, but this doesn't necessarily mean that digital ministry should be uncritical. Technology can connect us, but it can also harm us. Right? We know that platforms aren't neutral, that algorithms shape our attention, and sometimes that can be very negative because social media can amplify things like anxiety, our comparison traps.
Ryan Dunn [00:37:05]:
It can amplify outrage, can amplify body image struggles, and then artificial intelligence can provide us with answers, but it can create new forms of dependence and confusion. It spreads misinformation. It can make us feel isolated. Phil Deek said that part of his role with the Digital Fellows program was to keep asking ethical questions.
Phil Dieke [00:37:28]:
Because I kept asking the ethical questions behind technology. And as somebody who, like, helped build online ministries for a couple different churches, I very much believe in the opportunity and power of it, and I still believe in that. And also, at the same time, still keep asking the question of, just because we can doesn't always mean we should.
Ryan Dunn [00:37:48]:
Just because we can doesn't always mean that we should. Thank you, Phil. Also thank you, Jeff Goldblum. That is a crucial sentence for church leadership in a digital age. Churches can often feel pressure to be on every platform, right? We'll reach the young people. So we're going to get on TikTok or launch the Instagram or use a chatbot so we can have 24. 7 access or stream everywhere so nobody's left out, or automate everything and reach younger people and keep up. But Phil reminds us that our first question cannot be, can we do this? The first question actually probably should be, will this do harm?
Phil Dieke [00:38:26]:
And I think as United Methodists, we have to keep asking the question of is this doing harm? Right. Our first tenant do no harm. So that really is, like, the ethical question behind this. I want to keep asking, and I'm not a Luddite by any means, but I still think it's Important to ask the questions.
Ryan Dunn [00:38:41]:
So before launching a new digital initiative, we might ask some questions like who could be helped by this and who could be harmed by this? And what is it that this platform rewards? What does it form in us? Does it invite connection, or does it increase comparison, for example? Or does it create access, or does it exclude, or does it help us practice neighborliness? Or does it train us to see people as metrics? Digital ministry needs creativity, but it also needs a high degree of discernment. Temese offered a really evocative image in undergirding our expeditions into digital spaces. They described digital ministry through the image of John the Baptist in the wilderness. People went out to John. They left the familiar center and walked into the wilderness because something about him had integrity, something about his witness. Resonated to me. Sees a parallel with digital spaces.
Tamice Spencer-Helms [00:39:44]:
Matthew 11, John 3. These passages are coming to mind about this guy, John the Baptist, who was in the wilderness. And there was something so compelling about the integrity of John the Baptist that made people go to the wilderness to find him. I think that that's kind of the online space. I think people are looking so hard for something that resonates that they're stepping outside of institution into a wilderness. So I think that, like my work and my ministry is kind of like a voice that's sort of crying in the wilderness. And then how do you pastor fugitivity? And how do you pastor Hearts in the wild? It's kind of what I'm modeling after
Ryan Dunn [00:40:21]:
how do you pastor hearts in the wild? Many people are not walking into sanctuaries with their questions. They're carrying those questions into wilderness spaces. So digital communities and podcasts, comment sections, private messages, even video games. We've heard about online support groups, AI chats. Timis used the word fugitivity to describe what is outside the gate, outside the walls of the institution.
Tamice Spencer-Helms [00:40:49]:
I think fugitivity is whatever is outside the gate, outside the walls of the institution, where there aren't as many frameworks that are familiar, where the compass is kind of your gut and your own intention, your own integrity. Fugitivity means that there isn't an enclosure around you. And so you have to learn how to develop stability within. But I think it can be done, and I think it must be done with just the ways that things are changing and the ways meaning making is up for grabs right now.
Ryan Dunn [00:41:16]:
Yeah, meaning making is up for grabs right now. That is the reality church communicators are working within. The church no longer controls the primary spaces where people are making Their meaning. But that does not mean that the church has nothing to offer them. It means our posture has to change just a little bit. We may need to become less anxious about drawing people back inside the walls and more faithful in showing up outside the gate. We may need to become voices in the wilderness, Right? Not. Not shouting for attention, but bearing witness with integrity.
Ryan Dunn [00:41:54]:
Alrighty. What does all this mean for local church communicators and leaders? Well, let me offer some practical takeaways first. Maybe treat digital spaces, ministry spaces, not just marketing channels. Yeah, we need to communicate clearly, and we need to share worship times and our event information and provide our invitations. But if people are bringing questions of meaning, identity, belonging into digital spaces, then our communication should make room for those questions. All right, number two. Secondly, designed for relationship, not just for reach. Reach matters, we know that.
Ryan Dunn [00:42:32]:
But reach is not the same as relationship. So a post can reach thousands, inform no one. A small group online can reach a dozen and become a lifeline for those people. Think about what helps people move from observation to participation to belonging. Third, we want to honor people's agency. So not everyone is ready to walk into a sanctuary. Not everyone is ready to turn on a camera and let themselves be seen. Not everyone is ready to speak.
Ryan Dunn [00:43:05]:
Digital ministry can create on ramps for people who need to enter a little more slowly. And that's not lesser ministry. That may be a little bit of pastoral wisdom, actually. All right, fourth, stop treating younger people as a category to be captured. Ask better questions like why did they leave? Where do they already go? Now, what spaces feel truthful, expansive, and safe for them? And what labels do they actually use for themselves? What are they curious about? And what are they building without us, the older generation? All right, fifth, take culture seriously. Music, movies, games, podcasts, fandoms, and the online communities that represent them, those aren't obstacles or distractions from spiritual formation. They're often places where people are already encountering beauty and grief and wonder and transcendence. So we can start there.
Ryan Dunn [00:44:02]:
All right, sixth, this is going to be a long list. All right, sixth, keep asking ethical questions. Digital ministry is not automatically good because it's innovative. Ask whether a platform or a practice does harm, and ask what forms people in that space? Who benefits? Who's vulnerable? What kind of discipleship is happening through the tools that we use online? And finally, I guess this is seventhly, look for God's presence. The point is not the platform. The point is presence. God's presence in the end. Right? Human presence coming alongside each other in the presence of a neighbor.
Ryan Dunn [00:44:45]:
Willing to draw near to us. Thanks for drawing near and listening to or watching this entire episode of the MYCOM Church Communications and Marketing Podcast again. I'm Ryan Dunn really hope that this conversation helps you communicate more faithfully, lead more creatively, and notice where God is already at work. Not just online, but maybe offline and everywhere in between too. If you haven't already, hit subscribe on your podcast listening platform of choice and leave us a comment or review. What in this episode impact affected your understanding of digital ministry? Did something surprise you in this episode? Again, I want to offer a huge word of thanks to Rohini and Ben from First UMC in Richardson, Texas for doing the recordings. As always, I owe thanks to our staff at United Methodist Communications as well for this podcast. Particularly that would be Renee McNeil and Andrew Schleicher for all that they do to produce and promote my.
Ryan Dunn [00:45:46]:
Com. You can learn more about the podcast. You can find episode notes. You can get more resources for your digital ministry [email protected] and specifically for this [email protected] MyCompodcast MyCom is a monthly production, so I'll chat at you again in a few weeks. In the meantime, peace to you.